[Apple-Crop] Cueva/Double Nickel

Mon May 1 13:38:02 EDT 2017

Hi Vincent,

Our organic trials were comparing Badge alt Microthiol and Cueva + 
Double Nickel. They were all air blast at 100 gal/A. We've done a lot of 
injury trials and injury is seems to be increased with low volume or 
concentrate applications. Our injury results seem to follow the acute 
toxicity/exposure phenomenon, whereby injury is higher when the 
concentration is higher not more dilute. This is not unlike when one is 
exposed to a toxin in water, air, or direct contact. A few years back, a 
lot of growers in NY injured their plantings with complicated tank mixes 
during thinning applications in low volume applications like 50 gal/A. 
Two many things were getting mixed with captan in insufficient water and 
being extruded from nozzles.

Kerik

On 5/1/2017 1:00 PM, Vincent Philion wrote:
> Hi Kerik,
>
> It would certainly be interesting to understand why results differ so 
> greatly.
>
> It’s unfortunate that companies insist on high volume spraying. Aside 
> from the russeting issue, there are many good reasons to reduce spray 
> volume (in relation to tree size). It’s also unfortunate most trials 
> are done with a handgun (and no air assist?), resulting in a droplet 
> spectrum size and spray distribution very different from what growers 
> actually use.
>
> In any case, the good news is your results imply that Cueva is very 
> safe to use, even at high volume. Were you running oxychloride with a 
> similar copper concentration alongside Cueva?
>
> Vincent
>
>
>> Le 1 mai 2017 à 09:59, Kerik D. Cox <kdc33 at cornell.edu 
>> <mailto:kdc33 at cornell.edu>> a écrit :
>>
>> Hi Vincent,
>>
>> I'm sorry that our trials resulted in the opposite expectation. Most 
>> of the company protocols ask me to apply their products at 100 gal/A. 
>> I guess they were hoping to increase the chance of showing product 
>> injury at my field days. I thought it was a more universal tree row 
>> volume for apples, my mistake. The field crews at Geneva and Ithaca 
>> sprays everything at 100 gal/A. I guess it's an underhanded attempt 
>> to potentially injure our plots with copper. With all my dilute 
>> handgun applications, I'm surprised that I don't have potatoes. I 
>> guess I keep getting lucky.
>>
>> Best,
>> Kerik
>>> Hi Kerik,
>>>
>>> I don’t know how much experience you actually have with airblast 
>>> sprayer trials varying volume, but this is something we do routinely.
>>>
>>> Evidence of copper injury with high volume sprays dates back (at 
>>> least) to 1972. Look it up. Classic experiments demonstrate the same 
>>> amount of copper can defoliate plants or result in no injury, just 
>>> by varying volume.
>>>
>>> Let’s say I have a hard time “swallowing” your aspirin  analogy…! 
>>> Let’s stick to apples, OK?
>>>
>>> The fact that labels require you to apply large volumes of water 
>>> doesn’t make it a sound or sensible advice.
>>>
>>> Most likely, the labels reflect the trial conditions. And most 
>>> trials in the USA are run with high volume….!
>>> Vincent
>>>
>>>
>>>> Le 1 mai 2017 à 08:31, Kerik D. Cox <kdc33 at cornell.edu 
>>>> <mailto:kdc33 at cornell.edu>> a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> Hi Vincent,
>>>>
>>>> We've found that concentration is potentially more damaging with 
>>>> copper than higher volumes as the both 50gal and 100gal get the 
>>>> same amount of copper. It's like taking powdered aspirin with half 
>>>> the recommended amount of water. Also, many labels in the US 
>>>> actually require that certain products be applied in a minimum of 
>>>> 100 gal/A. If were potentially injurious to apply at 100 gal/A, I 
>>>> assure you that no company would include any such statements on 
>>>> label. Actually, they would, without a doubt, put statements saying 
>>>> that the product should not be applied at 100 gal/A or injury would 
>>>> occur. Excess water seems to just roll off the trees in our 
>>>> experiments.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Kerik
>>>>> I hope you meant a Low volume of water. High volume = slow drying 
>>>>> = russeting. This is very easy to demonstrate. We do it as a 
>>>>> "control" in plots. We always have copper induced russeting at 500 
>>>>> L/ha and none at 225 L/ha.
>>>>>
>>>>> Vincent Philion, agr., M.Sc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Le 1 mai 2017 à 08:05, Two Onion Farm <farmer at twoonionfarm.com 
>>>>> <mailto:farmer at twoonionfarm.com>> a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>> Kerik Cox at Cornell has done trials with this combination for 
>>>>>> cedar apple rust, summer fungal diseases, and fireblight and has 
>>>>>> had good results.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We started using the combination in our organic orchard last year 
>>>>>> and did not see any problems with fruit russeting.  Kerik did 
>>>>>> caution me to use a high volume of water to avoid toxicity from 
>>>>>> the copper (100 gallons per acre vs our normal 50 in our high 
>>>>>> density orchard).   We have used 2 qts/acre Cueva + 2 lbs/acre 
>>>>>> 2ble nickel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kerik also suggested that the 2ble nickel might be unnecessary 
>>>>>> and that cueva alone might be sufficient, but that may be 
>>>>>> theoretical at this point.  The 2ble nickel does add a lot of cost.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chris & Juli McGuire
>>>>>> Two Onion Farm
>>>>>> www.twoonionfarm.com <http://www.twoonionfarm.com/>
>>>>>> 19638 Cottage Inn Road
>>>>>> Belmont, WI 53510
>>>>>> (608) 762-5335
>>>>>> farmer at twoonionfarm.com <mailto:farmer at twoonionfarm.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/1/2017 6:43 AM, maurice tougas wrote:
>>>>>>> A couple years ago I recall discussion regarding the use of 
>>>>>>> Cueva/Double Nickel combination as an alternative and/or 
>>>>>>> rotation with strep for fireblight management. Is anyone aware 
>>>>>>> of further research regarding this combination esp as to regards 
>>>>>>> to crop safety and efficacy ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mo Tougas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Maurice Tougas
>>>>>>> Tougas Family Farm
>>>>>>> Northborough,MA 01532
>>>>>>> 508-450-0844
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Kerik D.  Cox, Ph.D., Associate Professor
>>>> Plant Pathology and Plant-Microbe Biology Section
>>>> School of Integrative Plant Science
>>>> Cornell University
>>>> 221 Barton Lab
>>>> NYSAES
>>>> 630 West North Street 		
>>>> Geneva, NY 14456 USA 	
>>>>
>>>> E-mail:kdc33 at cornell.edu  
>>>> Faculty Office: (315) 787-2401
>>>> Fruit Pathology Lab: (315) 787-2402	
>>>> FAX: (315) 787-2389
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>>>
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>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Kerik D.  Cox, Ph.D., Associate Professor
>> Plant Pathology and Plant-Microbe Biology Section
>> School of Integrative Plant Science
>> Cornell University
>> 221 Barton Lab
>> NYSAES
>> 630 West North Street 		
>> Geneva, NY 14456 USA 	
>>
>> E-mail:kdc33 at cornell.edu  
>> Faculty Office: (315) 787-2401
>> Fruit Pathology Lab: (315) 787-2402	
>> FAX: (315) 787-2389
>> _______________________________________________
>> apple-crop mailing list
>> apple-crop at virtualorchard.com <mailto:apple-crop at virtualorchard.com>
>> http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
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